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RE: Semi-OT: Programming Question
by Jack 14 Mar '05

14 Mar '05

--- "Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student)" <jmcqk6(a)umkc.edu> wrote: > >Beware the client who always changes the > requirements... :) > > Think there is a method of discovering such clients > ahead of time? My > experience so far has been that people with vague > ideas of what they > want are the worse. They don't know what they want, > so you try to build > what they describe This is the totally wrong approach. It is the deisgner's job to extract from a client a clear picture of what it is they want. This means getting input from the people who will use the product. It maens asking questions, restating the answers, and developing a data map and interface requirements. Defining the data that will be captured and how it relates is crucial in designing the database. If your database design is flawed all else is crap. Once you know what your data is and how it will be used you can go to the next level and design the interface. As was stated developing these design requirements takes several meetings. Also, it is important to tie feature creep with expenses. While I don't promote the approach of making feature creep overly expensive, it should be factored in a way to ensure profitibilty. If a client asks you to build a satellite and then over time the project creeps into building the moon, as long as you can do it and make a profit doing it I see no problem in giving it to them. That's just my $0.02, from the perspective of someon who has done this type of criteria extracting and feature creep management. Clients often don't think as designers (that's why we are supposed to make the big bucks) and need structured guidance in determining what it is they want and can afford. Now I have to go see what kind of feature creep my daughter wants. ;') Former designer meets Mr. Mom, ;') Brian Densmore __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

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ajax
by Jared 14 Mar '05

14 Mar '05

Asynchronous JavaScript and XML http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000385.php You will be seeing this idea more and more. It cracks open the last barrier between browser applications and other PC apps, and with Google showing off how cool it is, it is bound to stay. I've been watching it for about 3 years, and now it's getting the attention it deserves. It's the thing that allows GMAIL to update your browser with new emails without reloading your webpage, or allowing you to scroll across 100 yards of map seamlessly, one inch at a time--in your browser! I like it. I like it alot. -Jared

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Brother Jonathan reaches 0.9.0
by Jared 14 Mar '05

14 Mar '05

Fellow luggites, I have been working on an open source project for 18 months; I wanted to have a solid core in place before asking others for help. It is finally ready to invite other PHP developers to join in. The project is written in PHP, and it manages manufacturing Assemblies, Quotes, Invoices, Purchases, and so forth. Target audience is a small manufacturing business. http://www.brotherjonathan.org/ I am writing to invite you or someone you know to help work on this project. Here are some vital statistics: o Written in PHP o uses Smarty templates o uses the ADODB database abstraction layer o Themeable; there is only one theme so far o developed with a MySQL backend, but any major DB engine will work. o one module is already object-oriented; the others are classic procedural Although large in its own right, it is a very small competitor for the vast Compiere project which has been on Sourceforge's top 10 list for over a year now. About 500 proprietary products compete with it, also; I think this means that there is room to grow. It needs work in: 1. the accounting module, 2. testing, 3. documentation, and 3. the 200 bugfixes and tweaks that measure the distance between a 0.9 and 1.0. An intrepid volunteer who is willing to extract Assemblies from its location within Quotes might be useful, also. Also, does anyone have a PHP5 server that can be used to host a demo? Sourceforge is still at 4.3, and it won't run there. http://freshmeat.net/projects/brotherjonathan/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/brotherjonathan/ http://www.kcpug.org/site/modules/news/ Thanks for your time, -Jared Smith

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RE: Semi-OT: Programming Question
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 14 Mar '05

14 Mar '05

>Beware the client who always changes the requirements... :) Think there is a method of discovering such clients ahead of time? My experience so far has been that people with vague ideas of what they want are the worse. They don't know what they want, so you try to build what they describe, and as they see it forming, they can begin to define the end product. Creating an architecture that makes this possible in the least time consuming fashion seems to be the best route to me.

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RE: Semi-OT: Programming Question
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 13 Mar '05

13 Mar '05

Hey Brian, Thanks for the reply. No it's not a homework assignment (I dropped my comp sci degree cause it was moving to slow for my tastes). The end project will be a portal, somewhat like dotnetnuke, or rainbow portal, but I'm wanting to build it from the ground up on linux / mono. The reasons for this is that I don't like either one of the above mentioned projects, and I also want to learn the more advanced skills such a project will require. Of course, the project will be open source, and I think it can take off. To get away from my sales pitch now... :) I've got an object model that is monolithic right now, but I want to make it more flexible. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how I would implement a totally dynamic program, where everything from the gui to the datalayer is decided at runtime. The lines I'm thinking of now is creating some high level interface, perhaps something along the lines of a IMenuItem, which would contain methods for access the information needed to create a menu dynamically. I could then search through the plugin dll's and load all the objects that implement that interface. Of course, I realize that this is a big performance hit, but I think the flexibility of the software will overshadow that. The clients I'm working with now are always changeing the requirements of the software, even after deployment, and it seems that my framework would make those changes easier to implement (especially since even the most minor change wouldn't require a re-compile (or re-translation, if you want). Portability is not something I've even begin to study yet on my own, so I'm going to have to look into it. I know some of the basics (don't depend on a particular character encoding for example), but I think this will be minimalized by running on top of mono, which itself is portable. Since the framework will interact with endusers through web services and web pages, i don't have to worry about messing with gui toolkits, but even if I did, mono's implementation of a native toolkit is coming along really well. Josh ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- From: Jack [mailto:quiet_celt@yahoo.com] Sent: Thu 3/10/05 10:33 PM To: Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student); kclug(a)kclug.org Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Programming Question This sounds kind of like a homework assignment. But, why not use an object model. If you are looking to make the data and the functions dynamic objects are the way to go, by encapsulating the functions and variables in the objects and thus allow them to be overridden. Even though I consider them over used. You could also use templating and the data formats are defined at run-time. Of course this costs you in processing. While you're making this modle don't forget the Linux world, you ought to give some thought to OS portability. Lastly, C# is an interpreted language. C is a compiled language. If C# was a compiled language then there would be no need for Mono on Linux, one could just build a C# compiler to be part of the gnu compiler family. Some might argue that C# is a compiled language because it cinverts the code to byte code, just like Java. But really you still need that byte code interpreter to run it. It may be a bit more optimized or compressed by this means making it more efficient than run-of-the-mill interpreted languages, but it's still interpreted. Ok, so maybe I'm a purist, but I don't see doctors calling aspirin a cure or a vaccine for headaches. Brian Densmore --- "Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student)" wrote: > > I'm working on an application framework idea that > I've had, and have ran into the following problem. > My original (rough) design called for a monolithic > core that provided the main functionality I was > looking for, and would be extensible via plugins. I > then realized, though, that my software would be > much more flexible if I started out with a plugin > framework, and made all functionality > compartmentalized into plugins. That way if a user > doesn't want some functionality, they don't need to > install that plugin. The problem I'm running into > is trying to figure out exactly how I am going to > implement it. I've read a book on design patterns, > and have done some good research on google, but it > seems most of the documentation I'm finding is very > basic (i.e. how to dynamically load a dll, and > execute the code it contains.) > > Here's where I'm at right now. > > I can load a third party dll into my program and > execute the code, but I can't quite figure out how > to make it interact with dynamic data. Should I > create large object that contain the data, and when > the plugin is called, through an event of some sort, > just pass in that object? > > I'm also considering going through the MyPhpNuke > code to see how they do it in PHP. Would this be > helpful even though it's a interepreted language, > and I'm using a compiled language (C#)? > > I'm also looking at the option for doing all the > extensions through a scripting language, but that > seems to me to cause other problems. What I would > really want is to have complex plugins that are > encapsulated into a single dll. Distribution would > be made via a zip file, which would contain the zip > file, a SQL file ( containing any modifications to > the database needed), a manifest file ( with version > information ), documentation, and a xml config file > that will hold any needed configuration settings. > > Another option would be that I provide an interface > to keep all configuration in a single place, which > might be more elegant. > > I've been reading through the RainbowPortal code to > try to figure out exactly how they did it, but the > fine points elude me. Does anyone know of any good > documentation that can get me to the next step? > > Thanks, > Josh

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Real Basic
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 13 Mar '05

13 Mar '05

Has anyone worked with Real Basic at all? I know Jason Clinton had pointed me over to it once, about a year ago. It's a clone of basic, from what it looks like, but there are some rather neat features, including a built in database (single user) for your applications to use. It can also connect to other DB's out there, and anything, if you write a plugin for it. It's also got a builting 3D library, and many other cool features. http://www.realsoftware.com/realbasic/indepth/ Josh

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Re: Real Basic
by Brian Kelsay 12 Mar '05

12 Mar '05

Bill Cavalieri uses it and it looks cool. Brian Kelsay >>> "Charles, Joshua " <j> 03/10/05 05:14PM >>> Has anyone worked with Real Basic at all? I know Jason Clinton had pointed me over to it once, about a year ago. It's a clone of basic, from what it looks like, but there are some rather neat features, including a built in database (single user) for your applications to use. It can also connect to other DB's out there, and anything, if you write a plugin for it. It's also got a builting 3D library, and many other cool features. http://www.realsoftware.com/realbasic/indepth/ Josh

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Administration
by Brian Densmore 11 Mar '05

11 Mar '05

So since I won't have this email address much longer, but the email address may not go away. Do I need to unsubscribe from this email address? Brian Densmore

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RE: Semi-OT: Programming Question
by Brian Densmore 11 Mar '05

11 Mar '05

> -----Original Message----- > From: Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) > > > I've got an object model that is monolithic right now, but I want to > make it more flexible. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how I > would implement a totally dynamic program, where everything > from the gui > to the datalayer is decided at runtime. The lines I'm thinking of now Well first off. You want to separate the gui from form data processing. By separating the gui you can "drop in" different interfaces on the fly even within the same OS and not have to worry about messing with the data processing logic (aka business logic). > is creating some high level interface, perhaps something > along the lines > of a IMenuItem, which would contain methods for access the information > needed to create a menu dynamically. I could then search through the > plugin dll's and load all the objects that implement that > interface. Of > course, I realize that this is a big performance hit, but I think the Why would you want to or need to do this? I guess, I'm not following what you want to do. Building a menu dynamically is easily implemented as a file or db table with an item number, menu name, quick key, interface type, parent item, menu position, and maybe access level or/and other features. I just rewrote somebody's menu routine and increased the speed of generation from 30+ seconds to less than 5, so performance hits can get quite large if you're not careful. Of course the 5 second menu building might seem slow, but remember in order to build the menu tree you have to traverse the entire tree. I could improve this even more by completely rewriting the code using a b-tree type algorithm, but that would require redesigning the existing table also. Something they didn't want to do and 5 seconds is acceptable in this instance. As it is, I am mimicking a b-tree as best as possible based on the data source. So you see the design of the back-end data structure is very important. > flexibility of the software will overshadow that. The clients I'm > working with now are always changing the requirements of the > software, > even after deployment, and it seems that my framework would make those > changes easier to implement (especially since even the most > minor change > wouldn't require a re-compile (or re-translation, if you want). Ah, yes ... I've dealt with clients like this.

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RE: Semi-OT: Programming Question
by Brian Densmore 11 Mar '05

11 Mar '05

> -----Original Message----- > From: D. Hageman > > ... > Seriously, I do not group C# into realm of interpreted > languages. I would > agree that the line is blurring now that we are starting to see the > compilers for interpreted languages, but one can still use those > interpreted languages as a simple tool to assist in quick > shell tricks. I'll agree with you that there is no interactive interpreter. But interpreted means it has to pass through an interpreter for the computer to use it, not through the programmer. So, I'll continue to say it is interpreted and not compiled, because that is what it is. I don't care how complex or how many bells and whistles it has in the end it's interpreted before it's usable by the bare metal. I learned how to program using machine language, and then assembly. I wrote a "compiler" inside GW-Basic in 1980. So I know a little something about compiled versus interpreted. I don't care what the MS salespitch says is compiled. So you can call it compiled since it's compiled into bytecode but then you have to call java compiled too. I disagree also that an interactive interpreter for C# would be useful. You could test out lines of code and procedures from inside it. I don't use C#, I haven't had the opportunity at work and have no need at home. At work it's all VB. Of course work is over, this job is gone and I probably won't be sending anymore email from this address. I understand your position, but still consider it wrong from a purely technical perspective. Peace, Brian "Jack" Densmore Jack of many trades, master of a few. Don't know jack about brain surgery, but if you hum a few bars I could argue about that one too. ;')

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