KCLUG October 2008

kclug@kclug.org

31 participants
37 discussions

Recommends for "just a browser" live distros- either existing ones or comments on making one.
by Oren Beck 22 Oct '08

22 Oct '08

As a result of past discussions on using free to cheap hardware for Linux some folks are sharing ideas. One of my campers here suggested I "bribe" programmers to improve his kiosk Linux experience! That evening produced about 10 pages of scribbled notes on must do and cannot EVER do events. Then a near equal amount of "would be so cool" functionalities. The upshot is we soon grasped a fundamental common element. A web browser was 100% of the user interaction with whatever that user was doing! So? Nothing earth shaking in that. The recurrent theme/s in comparing all 3 lists? must do FOO- never can let BAR happen - would be neat if it could? ALL centered on insulating a user from preventable frustration . The user sits down and accesses the web. NO tech skill needed. - For the duration of their session every step builds a "Go Back" button buffer. Saving and printing in some mode akin to assisted repartitioning tools. The information above was harvested from comments made by campers and staff over the last year or so that the kiosk has been up. Let me fill in the background if anyone on list missed it. I have been using both Puppy and Damn Small for a public guest kiosk here at the campground. Subject to minor annoyances it's been an overall success. The question to me is what other options exist for this niche? Or is there potential in craft building such a distro? I would consider trading camping and fishing as incentives. Basically I think our membership has the collective skills to make several sorts of world improvements. Or just to share ideas in a different sort of meeting space The idea being? To get a group session out here sometime next spring where we'd compare the winter's projects.

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Re: Free, Linux-compatible Dialup Internet Service Providers
by Sean Crago 19 Oct '08

19 Oct '08

NetZero might not be the most Linux-friendly ISP out there but, back in the day, if you called and asked for regular PPP credentials they'd give 'em to you. I did this twice for Windows users that had machines that were so antiquated and underpowered that they struggled to simultaneously run the adware and a proper IE session. Tested the credentials w/Linux's pppd, and they worked just fine. The only thing that might prevent this from working in your case is that they were both paying customers and the fact that all this was 2-3 years ago. Also, be prepared to lie and not tell them that you're using a *gasp* unsupported operating system - Obviously a $0-$10/month dialup ISP isn't going to be getting the cream of the tech support worker crop, so far as their ability work with multiple OSes goes. Worth a shot, if you can't find anything else local. Sean Crago Kathmandu

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Free, Linux-compatible Dialup Internet Service Providers
by Leo Mauler 16 Oct '08

16 Oct '08

I was asked this question on another list. After a little poking around, I was surprised to learn that there were a few still in existence, albeit with some restrictions. I'm going to pass on the information so that you can tell someone who needs dialup Internet access (such as on that older computer running Linux that you just gave them for free) but can't afford a monthly subscription service. NOTE: There is one more ISP, JUNO/NETZERO, which offers 10 hours a month of Internet service for free, and has lots of local numbers nationwide, but they make you look at lots of ads and have a Windows-only client (and most people report that they add up your time so sneakily you rarely get 10 hours a month). All of the options below are Linux-friendly free dialup ISPs. > If you live in Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, > New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island or Southern > Florida, *OR* if you have unlimited long-distance > service on your phone line, there is a regional ISP > which offers free local dialup service (and thus > free dialup service outside their region if your > long-distance is unlimited). > > http://www.freedialup.org/site/ > > You register on their website to find out their list > of phone numbers, then dial into a server phone > number. The username is "your phone number", the > password can be anything at all (please pick a > non-offensive word). > > The service has two limitations: the ports for SMTP > (outgoing E-mail) and NNTP (usenet newsgroups) have > been blocked, so you will not be able to do either > one, even with a third-party service. All other > services, including POP3, are available. It is > suggested that you use web-based E-mail to do E-mail > with their service. > > ======================== > > The Western Washington State region, including Seattle, > has its own free dialup ISP, and like the East Coast > free dialup ISP they don't mind if you call > long-distance (with your unlimited long-distance > service) to use their ISP: > > http://www.nocharge.com/connect.htm > > Like the East Coast free dialup ISP, the SMTP (outgoing > E-mail) port is blocked on their service, but otherwise > the Internet service is unfiltered. You can use their > Windows Dialer or your own dialup connection software > (thus this one is also good for Macintosh and Linux > users). The username and password are right there on > the page, and you don't even have to register on their > website to use their free dialup ISP. > > ======================== > > If the problem is that you only use the Internet > occasionally and can't afford a monthly plan, but > might occasionally want to be able to use more than > 10 hours of Internet in a single month, "Budget > Dialup" is a company which offers prepaid Internet > service. On a Windows system, you can use their > software and get the first five hours free, but you > don't have to use their software to connect to their > dialup servers, meaning you can use other operating > systems like Mac OS or Linux. > > You buy a package of time, and then have a year in > which to use it. The current plans, for calling a > number local to you, are 10 hours for $5.95, 20 > hours for $9.95, and 60 hours for $28.95. If you > don't do a lot of downloading, 20 hours will last > you for a month or two of browsing and E-mail. > Buying additional time will give you one more year > to use both the new time and any old time from > previous purchases. > > http://www.budgetdialup.com/

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[Fwd: [alg] Open source technology and politics]
by lowell 16 Oct '08

16 Oct '08

The perfect solution to our (perceived?) problems?

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Donate Your Old Hardware to Those Who Can Use It [Blog Action Day 2008]
by JDP/Frogman 16 Oct '08

16 Oct '08

Sent to you by JDP/Frogman via Google Reader: Donate Your Old Hardware to Those Who Can Use It [Blog Action Day 2008] via Lifehacker by Kevin Purdy on 10/15/08 There are lots of cool things you can do with leftover hardware, from building a home-baked server box to reviving an old laptop and beyond. But one of the best hacks you can pull off is making your gear available for the people and communities that can't afford the latest and greatest. I recently met and signed up with a local non-profit that refurbishes and installs computers for those in need, and learned a bit about how anyone can help do the same. As part of Blog Action Day 2008, I'm listing below a few links and resources for those looking to help, and a few quick tips on donating your hardware (or your time). Photo by Strutta.com. Having been blessed with a somewhat flexible schedule and a surfeit of geeky know-how, I wanted to see if I put the skills I normally use in my free time to use for a greater cause—having read that such is the best way to find a cause you can stick with. A few weeks back, I happened to drive by the storefront for Buffalo, NY's Computers for Children, which does exactly what it sounds like. I emailed the directors asking how I could help, and was invited in to take a tour and submit an application and my resume (a formality many non-profits must require, for various legal and insurance reasons). Some of the systems that end up at Computers for Children (CFC) come from bulk upgrades at corporate or governmental entities, but personal donations can be crucial in filling in the gaps. An IT department might, for example, yank the hard drives from an entire fleet of beige desktop boxes for security or salvage purposes, leaving them mostly useless for renovation purposes. Personal donations also bring in the more unique consumer-oriented hardware that can be put to use in creating group servers, teaching children how to use digital cameras, and filling out otherwise perfectly good systems missing one crucial part. From my brief interviews and tour at CFC, I learned a few things about what similar charities are looking for: - Working hard drives: They're often the first thing to go on otherwise functional systems, and while you may think your 40 GB Maxtor is too tiny for your MP3 vaults, it's perfect for a shared community center or school system. - Non-white monitors—LCD, if possible: This may not be true at all firms, but CFC has a surfeit of white or beige CRT units (a.k.a. big old-school monitors) that don't match with the increasingly dark-colored systems they're working on selling and renovating. If you've got a dark-framed monitor you're thinking about pitching, consider helping a charity out. - Read the requirements: Most non-profits and community donation centers will list on their web sites the minimum requirements for the systems they're looking for. Take a glance before you hop in the car—dropping off your far-outdated gear just leaves them with heavy, space-taking stuff to get rid of. - No computer geniuses required: You may not be a pro at setting up KVM systems or firmware upgrades, but many technology-focused charities often need volunteers to help set up and explain the systems, and newer technology like blogging and digital cameras, to schools, community classes, and other causes. In other words, if you're reading this blog, there's a good chance your skills can be put to good use. I'm looking forward to putting in time with CFC, and you can likely find a similar group you can donate to, volunteer for, or otherwise help out with. Here's a short list of some potentials: - The National Christina Foundation, which also works with Dell's recycling program to accept hardware. - TechSoup's resources page, which points to a variety of resources in the left-hand "Donate Computer Equipment" box. - Computers for Schools is a Chicago-based group with affiliates in 34 states. Here's a list of drop-off points. - Microsoft has a list of ten tips for computer donation, including advice to keep the OS intact, if possible, and guides to wiping your personal data off your hard drive before donating. - UsedComputer.com has a extensive list of computer donation groups, along with recycling resources for the stuff that just isn't needed. - Open-source firm Untangle teams up with the yearly LinuxWorld conference in San Francisco to organize Installfest for Schools. Hit the link to learn more about donating or setting up a Linux-flavored Installfest in your own town. Got a local or national non-profit that helps put hardware and other technology to use in the communities that need them? Share the link in the comments. Things you can do from here: - Subscribe to Lifehacker using Google Reader - Get started using Google Reader to easily keep up with all your favorite sites

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ITEC: The Economy Got To Them Too
by Leo Mauler 15 Oct '08

15 Oct '08

The Kansas City Linux Users Group booth at ITEC is #423. It looks like some folks on this list will get their wish, albeit in a "monkey's paw" fashion: the booth package for "Associate Partners of ITEC!" does not come with electricity, meaning that there will be no demo PC, but also no "onsite burning of LiveCDs", and no laptops which need to be plugged into an outlet. No demonstration machines whatsoever. If anyone can burn up another 50 Ubuntu 8.04.1 LiveCDs and drop them by ITEC, that would be most appreciated. I've only managed 50 so far. I have 100 paper sleeves so if you show up with a spindle of 50 burnt CDs I can stick them in sleeves. I'm going to print up a bunch more brochures like from last year as well. Without any demonstration systems we are going to run out of CDs and printed materials quickly. The booth package for "Associate Partners of ITEC!" also did not come with a table or chairs (it did come with a curtain back wall, side curtain mini-walls, carpet on the floor, and an open ceiling), so I've set up a 4' table with a red tablecloth. If someone could bring another table, that would be nice, and aim for a dark red tablecloth. If you want to come by and hang out, or sit in the booth for awhile greeting attendees, remember to bring a chair. Whomever has the KCLUG banner needs to bring it by, and the KCLUG librarian needs to bring the Linux books, so that there will be subjects to talk about. Personally I'm annoyed. Stephen Fry recently did a 45 minute video about Free and Open Source Software, and the Birthday of GNU, titled "Happy Birthday To GNU", and released it in OGV (Ogg/Thedora) format with a "Creative Commons Attribution-No Derivative Works" license (which permits it to be converted into other formats to distribute it widely, such as through YouTube or on a DVD, as long as it is disseminated in its complete form), and it would have been a wonderful addition to the KCLUG booth. Y'all can download and view a copy of this video, which Stephen Fry and GNU both want distributed as widely as possible, through blogger links, http://stephenfry.com/blog/?p=52, and through the GNU website: http://www.gnu.org/fry/happy-birthday-to-gnu-download.html Lots of different sizes, from a high-res 125MB OGV file to a dial-up 3MB OGV file, and sizes inbetween. One of the medium sized versions has English subtitles, there are several sizes in French, and there is even an Ogg Audio file of the program.

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A question about the "how to make it work" issue of my week.
by Oren Beck 14 Oct '08

14 Oct '08

Shortest summary is: I am trying to get a drive image-for want of better semantics- that will be a plug in-power it up-and it goes to a working desktop with net if possible- needing near to zero human input. There are obviously non trivial parts of the process. Yet- let me explain how the query came about. A friend came over earlier this week bearing the HD from his Gateway P133 Win98 old system. In an attempt to copy files onto backup media- the drive was accidentally installed as primary master. Which of course resulted in a failed attempt by windows to boot hardware it lacked information about. Which caused a query. How can a Livedistro be replicated onto a HD? The simple elegance of a pre-imaged drive that on initial boot acts identical to Knoppix etc for autodetection and bringing up a functional net connected if possible browser. Think it over a moment as to what is and NOT involved. The two prime factors desired here are an ultimate "it just works" function level. And having it do so absent other than trivial human interaction wherever possible. Sounds a bit non-trivial at first but is it really that hard? Here's my current "missing links" list. What is the best tutorial for remastering Live distros in overview? What is recommended for scripting automatic local identification thru IP or whatever. IF there was a comparatively painless way to automate the "where am I in the world?" issue- several set up queries in the dialog go away. Can anyone direct me to an explanation of how/why an installed from Live distro seems to lack the auto detect on startup properties ? And yes- I have been asking around about some parts of this a while. and Google etc seem not to be yielding good enough to use data. -- Oren Beck 816.729.3645

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Re: Wireless bridging tutorial
by Sean Crago 14 Oct '08

14 Oct '08

>I've recently come into the possession of a video game console capable >of connecting to the internet via ethernet. Unfortunately, no >ethernet port is within reasonable range. I have a spare WRT54GL and >I know there was a thread earlier about alternative linksys firmwares >and I'm a fan of Tomato. Does anyone know of a guide on the Web for >Tomato to set up a wireless bridge for this? Not sure you need one. I popped into my Tomato config, and I think all you need to do is select "Wireless Ethernet Bridge" under the "Basic" configuration page, tell it your SSID, and jack your NIC-modded Famicom into one of the network ports. Haven't tested it, but it really shouldn't be complicated at all. Wireless ethernet bridges tend to be absolutely trivial to setup. Sean Crago Kathmandu

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Making a categorical niche. The "most used" functionality. And what defines it
by Oren Beck 13 Oct '08

13 Oct '08

The simple concept is deceptive in it's impact. We at one time had niche hardware such as mail stations and Pocketmail devices. And they *STILL* have a devoted following of users in their niche markets. If all one does is a limited range of functions they have no need for more. The value of accepting that fact hatches a new zen like wisdom. If all the user is doing is Function list X- than they can use whatever will comfortably do the list. YES- many of us really want or need to do "bleeding edge" stuff with computers. But there is a major chunk of our society that "nothing beyond a browser" is needed. We even can consider skipping a local printer. All that is needed is a net browser. There are countless numbers of folks who do NOT have easy access to a web browser of any sort. Having one in the day room of a care facility for example. Having the less fortunate among us get one per family! One Laptop Per Child ? When America does not have one web browser enabled seat for each FAMILY? That reality sort of is derogatory to America. Sending a single usable system or laptop to recycling is a shameful failure. The preferred recycling should be into productive service. By running a Linux distro suited to that minimum functionality. The details can be made trivial. Oh? Who pays for this? Our whole species if we flunk at it. -- Oren Beck 816.729.3645

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Re: regarding "just plain works" as a goal
by Leo Mauler 13 Oct '08

13 Oct '08

--- On Wed, 10/8/08, Billy Crook <billycrook(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 16:46, Leo Mauler > <webgiant(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > nicely for multimedia and applications, they > > will agree that Linux can resurrect allegedly > > "obsolete" hardware. > > Right. And so can Windows 98. No, no it can't. Ubuntu 8.04.1 runs nicely on a PIII-1Ghz (actually I have it running on a PII-600Mhz as well) and has *current* updates. Windows98 has *no current updates*, so it will be pwned the instant it connects to the Internet. Also, software isn't current for Windows98 like it is for Linux. With Linux the end user merely needs to access a software repository for current software (or create a download script for a friend's broadband connection, see P.S. at the bottom of this message). The Windows98 user must hunt through EBay and used computer stores and junk bins at software sellers to find hopelessly outdated software. Windows98 cannot be used to resurrect allegedly "obsolete" hardware precisely because Windows 98 *is* obsolete, unlike the hardware it ran on. > Old hardware is garbage. Garbage is > faster today than it was a year ago. To paraphrase the old proverb, "Billy Crook's garbage is everyone else's treasure." Or, if you read to the very end of this email reply, paying close attention to what Billy Crook says about old hardware, "Billy Crook's garbage is *also* Billy Crook's treasure." > Thanks for comparing Linux to Windows 98. I never did. You did, most inadequately. > It can run fast on old hardware too, and you're > just cementing the idea in the heads of the public > that Linux is what you put on garbage computers > before the trash collector comes to haul them off. > That's progress. Thanks. I don't even think > there's a need for this public PR campaign any > more. Microsoft has done a better job than any > of us could at making Linux look good. You may recall there's this thing being called a "banking and credit crisis" happening right now. Lots of companies are freaking that for the next few years they may not be able to buy new computers (or in your words, upgrade their "garbage") because they will have no credit to borrow against. Thanks to Microsoft Vista, the only way to "upgrade" to the only new OS they know about is to buy new computers. So they, in their own minds, cannot upgrade right now. People need to realize that that currently-owned business computers which run sluggishly on Windows XP/Vista will fly on Linux and be safe from modern threats (unlike Windows98). What you don't seem to realize is that if someone sees a PIII-1Ghz machine run faster on Linux than their P4-3.0Ghz dual-core machine runs on Vista, the above average level of intelligence of an ITEC attendee means they will probably make the leap of logic saying that a P4-3.0Ghz machine would run considerably faster on Linux than on Vista. > > While some ITEC attendees might figure out how to > > dual-boot their existing system to explore Linux, > > most of them will balk at dual-booting their main > > system. What I aim to do is show them that the > > 10 year old 1Ghz system in their closet (or the > > $25 1Ghz systems on Craigslist) could be restored > > as a Linux training system or child's computer. > > That will get them using Linux. > > Not when they have a REAL computer already on their > desk Right now everyone is worried about money. There are still FUD trolls out there talking about Linux trashing hard drives. No company is going to spend new money buying a new machine to test Linux on, and no company is going to want to risk trashing (real fears or not) an existing, working PC system just to save a few bucks on Linux. If I show them a modern machine, they are going to think in terms of modern machine prices, then think of the fact that their bank won't lend them any more money, and thus continue to use their existing Windows OS setups. If I show them they can test out Linux on a PIII-1Ghz machine, and even use it as a production machine in some circumstances, they're going to be able to afford the $50 at the Surplus Exchange for a PIII-1Ghz machine (as of October 2nd, 2008). I thought I might plug the Surplus Exchange while I'm at ITEC as well, they are an *actual* non-profit and do have great prices on older machines suitable for trying out Linux, as well as training classes helping teenagers learn how to build and maintain PCs. Whether or not a computer is REAL is an entirely subjective opinion, as you seem to agree with despite emphatically insisting that "garbage" computers have no use and wouldn't be wanted by anyone for anything, especially not by Billy Crook, no, not even as a WAN/router box. > Show them Linux on a MODERN machine. It is NOT > what you put on old garbage. It is what you replace > Vista with when you need to get work done. Full agreement with the "replace Vista" concept, but if I show up with a P4-3.0Ghz dual-core machine and run Linux, people may be tempted to think that the PC, not the OS, is what is causing it to fly. If they see a PIII-1Ghz system fly on Linux, they have to admit that the OS choice has more to do with it than the hardware, because most of them will have used a PIII-1Ghz system running Windows. > > The main system can come later. > > Yeah, by your plan, it will come ten years later > when it's in the closet, and there's another new > system on the desk. And the new system would be running Linux, of course, because the end user had been playing with Linux for ten years. "Test machine now, main machine later" is how I approached it 10 years ago, and the reason why I think that this reasoning works is that it worked on *me* (though no doubt much faster these days: the instant Ubuntu Linux came along, it made me drop Windows as a production OS almost instantly). > And the other ten year old software [Windows98] > plays "all those cool retro DOS games" (without > quirks). Personally I'd consider "having hundreds of unpatched security holes WHICH WILL NEVER BE PATCHED" at the very least a "quirk", if not "a reason to run away screaming". > If you want to make a statement, bring two, > identical new computers in. Wipe Vista off > one of them, and have them doing the same > things, with a cpu/memory utilization meter > always on top. That would TOTALLY RUIN THE POINT of the KCLUG booth. After all, Linux can *stand on its own*. If we constantly engage in Microsoft bashing, we look like the fringe "nutritional supplement" industry which uses doctor-bashing and medicine-bashing as a sales pitch: "use our products, not necessarily because they're better but because all the other products are EVIL!" Frankly I think that Linux can stand on its own, without all the Microsoft bashing. We do a lot of M$-bashing here, because we're all Linux converts here (and some of us still support Microsoft products), but out there on the ITEC Exhibitor floor the focus needs to be on informing people about what Linux can do, not that Microsoft is evil. The attendees have to build, maintain, and service Microsoft already, they already know that Microsoft is evil and do not need reminding. What they don't know is what Linux can do, or something else that Linux can do that they didn't know yet which would make them seriously consider using Linux. I have been bringing a "Why Not Use Linux" tri-fold pamphlet to ITEC for the past few years, designed on OpenOffice.org and printed from a Linux machine, which describes Linux in glowing terms while avoiding any reference whatsoever to any other OS. People need to be told about Linux and what it can do for them. They do not need to be told Microsoft is evil (this is self-evident information ;-) ). > > I think an attendee who has ever had to upgrade > > his or her PC <snip> > > I really couldn't wait until the end of that line. > I'm serious. I had to stop right here to ask What? > Where have you been? People don't upgrade their PCs. > Maybe we do, but the rest of the world does not. > I've looked at what ITEC cost to attend, and what > was on the schedule, and it sounded to me like > corporate IT middle management. Regarding the ITEC "cost to attend", the really high prices are for the Exhibitors, not the Attendees. The Attendees (before I started getting in as a KCLUG Exhibitor, I was also an Attendee) can get in for *free*. I still get E-mails from the ITEC promoter telling me that the Exhibitor Floor ITEC (plus some free seminars) can still be had for *free*. The folks going to the seminars are most likely the IT department people, with any extra paid seminar costs paid for by their companies. So we are talking to the IT department employees, the IT guys for small businesses and government agencies, and the IT guys who work contracts for consulting agencies, and mostly not the middle management, when we speak to ITEC attendees. One of my oldest friends is the IT guy for the Kansas City School For The Blind: his employer can't afford expensive seminar fees, but since basic ITEC admission is free, he attends ITEC every year. > [Corporate IT middle management] don't open the > computer. They don't upgrade windows. They buy > another computer with 'the new windows' on it. No, they pay an IT department to do mysterious things with computers. The IT department also attends ITEC, you know, and they're handed a budget by middle management and told to make the most of it. Expecting that the IT people always tell the truth, when doing exactly what middle management thinks they want to happen would be so much more expensive than the existing budget, is somewhat naive on your part. IT departments are successful when the end user has no idea what the IT department does. This can cause problems for the IT department later on, when bean-counters think that the IT budget can be cut because "the computers run so well we don't need such a high IT budget", but the fact is that the less middle management knows about the operation of the IT department, the better for the entire company. > </snip>because Microsoft added more bloat to > > their Windows OS and he or she got sick of > > the older hardware system slowdowns, will > > be impressed with how Linux runs so fast > > on a PIII-1Ghz machine. > > When windows users are sick of the slowdowns, > they call Geek Squad, or buy a new one. Yes, but we're not talking to "most Windows users" here, as you yourself pointed out just a few paragraphs ago. We're speaking to the IT departments. The middle management (or in fact any other non-technical Windows users) aren't really involved here. > I have NEVER been impressed on how Linux ran > on old hardware. Maybe that's just because I > use it on modern machines on a daily basis > though. And you aren't everyone in the world. In some ways, be glad of that. ;-) > Listen to this carefully, because it is important. > NOBODY WANTS the old computer in the closet/basement. Because the only OS option they know about is Windows OS. Don't try to use "hatred of Windows" as your "proof" of "hatred of old hardware." > It's there because they're afraid trash pickup will > bill them for hazardous waste disposal. Because they don't know a useful way of using it in their home, because they only know about Windows. Again, you are erroneously claiming the effects of "hatred of Windows" are actually the effects of "hatred of old hardware." > So what old hardware I use, I use for WAN > networking/firewall and proxy hosts, because > that, it can keep up with. So, what you are saying is that *you* WANT the old computer in the closet/basement? Aren't you just cementing the idea in the heads of the public that Linux is what you put on garbage computers before the trash collector comes to haul them off? Isn't Linux NOT what you put on old garbage? Aren't you NEVER impressed on how Linux runs on old hardware? It is rather silly that you went on for several paragraphs insisting that people should not be informed that Linux is what you put on garbage computers, and that people will not find Linux on garbage computers to be useful, and then informed everyone that *you* put Linux on garbage computers and feel that Linux on garbage computers can be useful to end users. ======================== P.S. It occurred to me just now (honestly forgot) that I'm typing this entire message on the demo PC (with its 15" monitor), the Ubuntu Linux 8.04.1 PIII-1Ghz machine, while using it to listen to music and download updates for a friend's Linux PC which has no high-speed Internet (Synaptic "download scripts" are nice). This system is most definitely not "garbage" and still has a lot of use left on it with Linux, use it would most definitely not have under Windows 98. ========================

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KCLUG October 2008